Starter fried???

[bmarx]

Well, we hooked the jumper cables up to the bug, and I managed to get the junk ignition switch to work, but every time I hit the starter, it tried to kill the car I was jumping it with. So, we put a new battery in the bug, and it turned over a little, then quit. I hooked the cables up again and it just clicks. I'm wondering if the (person) who converted this thing to 12 volt, did not change out the 6 volt starter, etc and maybe they fried it. The motor turns by hand, but unless we can get it to spin, we cannot get a compression test done. I'm a little miffed to say the least, so does anyone have any ideas? If the motor is good, I want to drive it for awhile before tackling the bodywork, and the bigger,better,newer motor, etc..lol. Please.... I need input, I am lost with this car. There is what appears to be a new ignition switch in the glove box, it looks just like pt# CPR111905803D in the catalog, but the one in the dash has a threaded kind of nut holding it in, not a bolt throught the bottom of the dash. The one that is in the dash was mutilated by the previous owners? maybe or a mechanic. All the tumblers were removed and you have to put it in the hole and use any key....morons. Maybe the new switch would help, if it is in fact new?

[Kimbo]

Well, it sounds like a starter that's maybe in need of some TLC - had a similar thing with my buggy a year or so back, sometimes it would spin, sometimes just click and sound like the battery was flat - checked all the charging circuits and the alternator but still no joy - went through various batteries and jump start/push start events - finally bit the bullet and got the starter serviced - new bushes, a new bearing, and a general clean up/lube, and now it performs as good as gold.

[Rick G]

If your ignition switch is iffy, get or make a remote start switch. it connects from the big main hot lug on the starter and to the solenoid connection on the starter. That way you are next to the motor when you push the button and spin (or not spin) the starter and you take the bad switch out f the equation until you get it replaced or cleaned up.

http://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-remote-starter-switch-35448.html


These are great to have for doing engine work.
I have had a couple of rebuilt starters from one of the major chains go bad in less than a year, they are cheap but don't appear to be refurbished that well from my experience. Both of the ones I had failed in the solenoid. The slug would only move a little, then click, but not enough to make contact and spin the starter motor. It sounds like yours is energising the windings if it is pulling down the boosting vehicle. Also check the bushing in the bell housing that supports the free end of the starter shaft.

Rick

[bmarx]

If my starter is fried, is my only option to rebuild it? I see they only sell post 67 starters. Is that what I would use when I convert to the 1600+ cc? I'll look for a kit to rebuild it I guess,( if they are available), and just save money for the conversion and not waste too much time on the 6 volt stuff. I sure wish they hadn't converted it.

[Rob 57 Oval (Talon)]

Starters go bad.  It may not be from the conversion, just may be age. Hell, the starter on my $20K boat went out at 43 hours. Check to see if you have an alternator/starter rebuild shop near by.  I took my boat starter to one, and they fixed it (solinoid was bad) for $50. A new starter would have been $350.

[Rick G]

Isn't the flywheel diff between 6 volt and 12 volt? Could this be an issue?

[bmarx]

Isn't the flywheel diff between 6 volt and 12 volt? Could this be an issue?

yeah, according to all I have read, but I can still use a 6 volt starter, you just have to be careful..lol. I really want to upgrade the drivetrain, but I want to drive it for a while first. Too much is involved right now to switch the starter and flywheel, so I will save that job for when I replace the drivetrain. I'm just hoping it will run without spending a fortune right now.

[buggyman]

 
"Isn't the flywheel diff between 6 volt and 12 volt? Could this be an issue?"
Yes,only if the engine had already been changed out to a later style with a 12v flywheel on it,the bad combo begrudginly(& noisily) starts the engine for a short time(couple of days maybe weeks at best) before the starter & flywheel gears get so tore up from the floor up that they won't talk to each other anymore,what happens in the meantime is that the starter bushing gets so worn down that you just end up with an internal binding,the coil & stator actually touch together preventing the starter from turning,burning out the switches & draining the battery excessively because it creates a direct short every time it's engaged.
If the engine hasn't been replaced & it's still a 6-6v match between them it could easily be that the original old soft brass starter bushing is just old & worn which causes the same symptoms over time.
If you take the starter out & bench-test it independent of the car & it spins fine & the ring gear on the flywheel look unmarred then I'd just try a new bushing 1st.
http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1038&osCsid=tq1thd7bvm565rk28jfb3c6b26 .
And yup "according to all I have read, but I can still use a 6 volt starter, you just have to be careful" .A 6v starter done right on a 12v system works killer,click-bang-go,works great!

[bmarx]

Well, the lady I bought it from was letting her daughter drive it to college when it "quit" running, maybe since she didn't know what happened, I may be in luck and all she had was a starter issue?? please,please,please..lol. I do know it needs a clutch cable, but if we can get it started, I will tune it up and drive it for the summer.

[bmarx]

I see in the book, and have heard people say the engine needs to be warmed up for a compression test. What if I want to check compression to see if it's ok, even though it will not start? I got my spark plugs today, the nice thing about working in a motorcycle shop is, I have access to the plugs..lol. I still need to pull the starter, but dreading it, it looks like it could be a lot of fun..

[buggyman]

 
"but dreading it..."
Why? ,if you're not 8' tall & 500lbs you have easy straight access to it by just jackstanding the back end of the car securely & removing the right rear wheel,2 nuts & a bolt out after disconnecting the wires & it basicly drops on your head unless you're holding onto it with the other hand .
Google "vw starte" & click on all the dropdown choices you're given which show the bushing problem, installation, troubleshooting, construction.... .

"What if I want to check compression to see if it's ok, even though it will not start?"
Pretty much no-can-do ,if it's not running other things like oil pressure affect the reading drasticly no matter how you try to get around it .

"the nice thing about working in a motorcycle shop is" you have extra hands & minds in person to help diagnose & cure the problem ,there's absolutely nothing wrong with asking for a hand now which helps you lend a hand to someone else later .
 

[bmarx]

from the diagrams, it looked like a load of fun pulling the starter...lol. Until I get it running, we have no room here at the shop, so I am in the dirt at my house, and with 2 young uns running around, it's pretty fun trying to keep them out of harms way no matter what what I am doing. We are going to hook up the remote starter button to make sure the switch isn't the culprit first, but if I do pull the starter, what exactly am I examining for on the bushing,etc? I know we can hook the starter up and check it off the car.

[Rick G]

FRom my experience a vw starter does not work well off the car because the drive end bushing resides in the bell housing. When the starter is sitting onthe floor there is no support on the drive end. As BM said, it's a lot easier than it looks to get the starter out.

You should get a haynes manual or a "How to keep your VW alive" for reference. They are almost as good as having Buggyman around.

[bmarx]

cool, thanks guys.

[buggyman]

 
"what exactly am I examining for on the bushing,etc?"
An "ovaling" of it on the side facing away from the flywheel,it should be perfectly round inside & a little bit of an interference fit to reinstall the starter.
http://www.google.com/images?q=vw+starter+bushing&um=1&hl=en&tbs=isch:1&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=20
http://www.vw-resource.com/longblock.html#starter
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=bad+vw+starter+bushing&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=bad%20vw%20starter%20bushing&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi

"From my experience a vw starter does not work well off the car because the drive end bushing resides in the bell housing. When the starter is sitting on the floor there is no support on the drive end."
There's a way around that ,just a pocket screwdriver to prop up/center the armeture where the bushing would normally be ,if it's on the floor of the garage you need a couple of hefty bricks to trap the whole starter body in place since it's gonna try to torque over in the opposite direction it turns ,better to cinch it lightly in a bench mounted vice in order to keep it from running away from you or chasing straight at you .
 

[VolksDragen]

" Starter fried??? "

I personally like em BBQ'd (less cholesterol) 

[bmarx]

Well, I have a new battery, and one of those remote starter buttons, but every time I even think of working on my bug, it rains for 1/2 the day and makes a pond under the car, or the wind blows 90 mph..lol. I need a garage bad. Hopefully the weather will cooperate soon.

[bmarx]

ok, I have been reading that book everyone talks about, the idiots guide. I finally got it the other day. I'm going to try to work on it in the next few days, I have been building a 10 x 12 storage shed and that has been eating all my funds and time..lol. Lumber sure isn't cheap anymore.